Episode 61: Alabama Supreme Court Ruling and Other Reasons Religion Shouldn’t Be Making Fertility Decisions with SEEDS Board Member Lisa Stark Hughes

Join Carey Flamer-Powell, Founder and Director of Surrogacy Mentor and Modern Parent Mentor, along with SEEDS panel member and GS Moms Surrogacy Agency Owner Lisa Stark Hughes.

Listen as they discuss:

• The history of surrogacy in religion.
• How different religions view surrogacy. 
• How religion played a big part in the new Alabama Supreme Court ruling on IVF.
• Why personal and religious views on abortion should have no place in politics.

Referenced Statements regarding Alabama Supreme Court Ruling on IVF:

• SEEDS statement 
• Resolve's statement 

Let'sormalize surrogacy through education and open discussion!

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Transcript

Carey: 0:05

Welcome to today's episode of the Normalized Surrogacy Podcast by Surrogacy Mentor. I'm your host, Carrie Slammer Powell, experienced gestational surrogate surrogacy, agency founder and owner of Surrogacy Mentor, and Modern Parent Mentor, where our aim is the safe, ethical, and enjoyable surrogacy journey for all Today. I, I'm joined by our special guest, surrogacy agency owner and seeds board member Lisa Star Cues. Welcome,

Lisa: 0:31

Lisa. Thank you, Carrie. Thanks for inviting.

Carey: 0:35

Absolutely. So I'm excited about today's topic. It's, um, possibly somewhat controversial, but we're talking about religion and surrogacy. And all the ways that it interweaves into surrogacy that maybe people don't think about, and maybe ways that people think about a lot. So, I'm very excited to talk to you about this, and before we do so, I do want to share a little bit of Biographical information about you. So, Lisa Stark Hughes is the owner of GS Moms, which is a surrogacy agency, and she is also a two time surrogate. She's the mother to six children and two grandchildren. Lisa's also a board member of SEEDS and chair of the education committee, but most people know her as the host of the SEEDS Brown Bags. Lisa has been working on a variety of committees and boards and working with non profits since she was 12. From school boards to the Battered Women's Association and the founding board member of a natural foods co op, Lisa has helped a variety of people throughout her life. Her passion is helping others and she enjoys making a difference. So welcome Lisa again and so happy to chat with you. I know you and I haven't had a chance to talk on one of these podcasts, so. I'm excited to get your perspective on this topic.

Lisa: 1:58

It's a fun edgy topic. It really

Carey: 2:01

is, right? Um, all right, so let's start out. Let's just, you and I kind of, you know, had a little small powwow ahead of time about what we wanted to bring into this conversation. There've been some big developments as of the airing date of this podcast with regard to things that Affect surrogacy greatly that have a lot of religion in them. So we'll get to those in a sec. But why don't we start with sort of the overall idea of the history of surrogacy in

Lisa: 2:33

religion. So the first places that at least I know of, um, where surrogacy is mentioned is actually in the old Testament in Genesis. So you have the story, everyone's familiar with the story of Abraham and Sarah and how they, you know, didn't have children, they were getting older, but Abraham had this promise that he was going to have, you know, all of these children. And so he's going to be the father of. You know, as many as the sands of the sea or something like that. So, um, she gave her handmaid to Abraham, uh, so that they could have a child. So that would obviously be what we would consider now traditional surrogacy. Um, IVF hadn't been developed yet. So. Good. No, that's, that's what they were left with, but it was accepted and the child born through surrogacy was accepted as her child and Abraham's child. Um, of course, later she did end up having another child, um, Isaac. And so, um, you know, there were, there were two children. Now, some people look at that jealousy as like, see this, surrogacy is a bad thing. Like that's caused, you know, all of the wars in the middle East is. Some, some people will go to that extreme, um, but they forget that there are actually other instances of surrogacy in the Bible. So also in the old testament, there is Jacob and Rachel. So Jacob and Rachel, um, also had a hard time conceiving. Um, and they used two different surrogates actually to have. Two children, and again, both of those sons were accepted as Rachel's children as Jacob's children. They're the foundation of parts of the 12 tribes of Israel. So there wasn't any question there. Like, it's, it's not until later. That I think religion has actually started to make some make an issue of it on a variety of different levels. Um, but the nice thing is that the old testament is actually the 1 part where a lot of different, um, religions converge. Right? So, um, the Jewish religion believes in the old testament. The Muslims believe in the old testament. Obviously Christian, you know, any of the Christian denominations believe in the old testament. Um, so it's. It's kind of where everyone kind of comes together, but they have different views on it. So it's, it's fascinating. And then you get to, you look at the, even the same religions, but in different parts of the world also have different views on it. So anyway, it's just fascinating to me, but it's, as far as we know, this has been going on for a very, very, very long time. Yeah.

Carey: 5:18

Well, I'm glad that you brought up, um, the other religions because I want to make sure that people understand when we talk about religion, even though we live in the USA and the predominant religion is Christianity, we're not just talking about Christianity, we're talking about all different kinds of religions and how, first of all, how those religions speak about surrogacy in their history, how they speak about surrogacy now. Yeah. And most important, I think, to a lot of people listening, how do religious views affect the decisions and the process for surrogates and intended parents today in surrogacy? So before we move on to that, let's talk a little bit about, um, what you know about some of the other religions besides Christianity and how they view surrogacy today.

Lisa: 6:09

Sure. So, um, the Jewish religion and both you and I have worked with parents from Israel. Um, and so there's actually been some shifts. I'll say that we've seen, um, throughout the years, so I know back when I first started the surrogate had to be, um, single and Jewish through her mother's line. And when we say Jewish through her mother's line, like documented, like the lineage had to be documented and signed off by a rabbi, like a certain level of rabbi. Um, and then the parents, of course, were Jewish. They had to contribute or they had to find. If they needed an egg donor, the egg donor also had to be Jewish on her mother's side, because in the Jewish religion, your Jewishness comes through the line of the mother. And so here we have all of these different, who is the mother like questions. And so they just covered all of the bases, right? So the intended mother was Jewish. The egg donor was Jewish. The, um, surrogate was also Jewish. And the surrogate needed to be single, because Not that, like, she was married to the husband, because she wasn't, but she needed to be single in order for that child to not be her husband's. Right, right. Um, is the best way I can kind of explain it. We did actually have one case where we had a married Jewish surrogate, but her husband was not born Jewish. And so the Jewish religion did not acknowledge that marriage. And so therefore that was okay. So it can get very interesting. And now they've kind of moved to like, pick one. Like, just one needs to be Jewish, and we're okay. So, like, if you can find a Jewish egg donor, that works. If you can find a Jewish surrogate, that works. Like, they're trying to make it more accessible, and they're less hung up on, I guess. Everything needs to be just like this. So, um, that's a Jewish religion. Then in, um, the Muslim religion, and this one's fascinating to me, because they're different views, even though it's the same religion, they have different views in different parts of the world. So, um. In, in Uganda, I spoke with the Mufti, who's the head of the Muslim religion there in Uganda, um, and his feeling was that it was very much like a wet nurse. So in their religion, they have rules about wet nurses. So wet nurse is allowed, you pay her, but the children of the wet nurse cannot marry the wet nurse. The children of the family that she nursed, if that makes sense, because they, they consider them to be, well, now you're like family. So it's like almost like siblings. So you shouldn't marry each other. He felt that surrogacy was very much like that. It's still a woman caring, you know, for someone else's child. And so their biggest concern with surrogacy was to make sure that the children of the surrogate did not marry. The children of the family that she carried for the biggest concern, but they were totally on board with it. In fact, they felt that it solved the issue of jealousy between wives because there they allow polygamy. And so if, and they said the biggest reason that a man will take on a second wife is if the first wife is infertile and then cause contention, which is also what you see with. Jacob and Rachel and Leah, right? Because Leah was able to have children and Rachel really wanted children. And anyway, it, you know, it's, there's a lot of feelings there and it's a very deep seated desire to have a family. So he felt that it, it solved a problem. Right, you see solved a problem in that area, but allow people to have have families. So, and then in Christian religions, of course, there's a whole lot of different feelings, depending on which way you go from one extreme, which is like the Catholic view, which is. Any intervention in family building at all is wrong from birth control to anything, IVF, anything, um, that if you're supposed to get pregnant, you'll get pregnant. That's one extreme all the way to other Christian religions that see it more as like an act of service and helping people is good and surrogacy is fine. So everything in between. Yes. So, and I'm sure there are other religions out there, but that's, those are the ones that I am familiar with. Sure. And those are the

Carey: 11:00

ones with the exception of maybe Muslim. Those are the ones that seem to be the most involved in today's surrogacy, then news headlines or intended parents coming from, um, certain cultures. It seems like those are the main ones. So, That kind of ties perfectly into sort of the next topic that I want to broach with this overreaching topic of religion and surrogacy. So we've had a couple of big developments in the last couple of months with regard to, um, surrogacy and religion sort of poking its nose into surrogacy, if you will. So let's talk about, um, the most recent one. I think that makes the most sense. So let's talk about, for those that haven't heard, the Alabama Supreme Court made a ruling about a case, um, where some intended parents sued a fertility clinic, um, or a storage facility. Was it?

Lisa: 12:00

It was a hospital that had an IVF, you know, fertility clinic, like. As a part of the hospital, right?

Carey: 12:07

And they sued them because some embryos were damaged. And so the result of this case is that the Alabama Supreme Court said to put it very simply embryos are children and they must be given the same rights and held in the same. legal regard as children. So let's talk about, first of all, how did religion affect this ruling? I know a few things about the ruling, having read some of it, and I know that the word God and I believe Jesus are in the actual opinions written in support of this ruling.

Lisa: 12:46

Yeah, there's several quotes from the Bible. Um, in the ruling. Um, there's also a lot of incorrect medical terms. Like, they'll say that this happens at this stage when like, that's not the stage that that happens. Um, because it's kind of lacking. the scientific or medical facts. It also makes claims that in New Zealand and, um, Australia, the common practice is to do one embryo, like to only create one embryo at a time, which just so everyone knows is false. Right. The standard practice anywhere in the world, um, because from practical, from the practical standpoint, um, the way we explain it to our clients is the law of halves. Now, just remember that these halves are general, like everybody's different. The number of eggs that you retrieve, it's still considered fairly normal to lose half of them as far as, you know, half may not develop, half may not, you know, Even make it to two or three days. Half may not make it through PGS testing. Half may not, you know, and it kind of keeps going down from there. Like this gets halved and then this gets each kind of stage. It can be half half half. So you can retrieve 20 eggs and end up with three, three embryos. And everyone's like, Hey, that's good. You've got three. Like nobody's going to say, Oh, there's something wrong. And so, um, I think part of. Yeah. Part of what plays into this narrative between religion and science, for lack of a better word, um, is also partly this, um, pro life abortion narrative that we've had going on in this country for a long time. Um, which is this assumption that every single pregnancy ends in a healthy baby. And so, which is just not accurate, right? There's all kinds of medical issues and things that can happen to people that absolutely want this baby. This pregnancy that facilitate something else need to happen. That's it's not going to end up in a healthy baby. But the whole conversation politically here in America, a lot of times is it's either you're protecting the baby. Or it's my choice for some reason in the political narrative, we don't have this conversation of nature is a funny thing and can go a million different ways and we need to, um, allow for the, like, there's no way to make a law that's going to cover every single decision that needs to be made because there's too many avenues that it can go. So, um, the only one really is to leave the choice between the woman and. Her doctor, because every situation is unique and we're trying to find that out in Texas. So maybe that that will be heard and come across. Um, but this concept of the sanctity of life. At least to me is actually separate from this conversation about when does life start is abortion. Okay. You know, any of these things, because for example, an ectopic pregnancy, okay, that happens after, you know, conception, after the, the sperm and the egg have fertilized, because it's attached to the fallopian tube, typically nobody's going to survive that if. If there's not medical intervention, this is not the baby's not going to make it. The woman's not going to make it. Um, so to pretend that somehow there's some avenue of. Like, if we just protect the life of the baby, this will be okay is just not accurate. They can't take that embryo and move it to the uterus. Like, there's there's no scientific technology that allows for that. So, at some point. We need to have that conversation because that's the real conversation and it impacts women's health and to say that, Oh, there needs to be a medical board that's convened to sit here and debate this issue while her life lies in jeopardy, just isn't fair, but that's where it's coming from. And this is probably more controversial. I believe part of the issue is that a lot of times men are the ones making these decisions. And they don't actually understand how women's bodies work, like, because even if you take biology class and, you know, all of these things, it's different than seeing all the different ways that a woman's body works and how everyone's a little different and every situation is different. And you can't just say it's like this always, because in reality, it's just not like this always. Um, and so we kind of have this. Competing like the 2 of these are meeting together, um, and we're ending up having to rely on, in this case, as Supreme Court judge, who was a man. And so he went back to the Bible instead of medical science and, you know, and made his decision. Um, and they also don't look at the repercussions of that decision, like, they think it's isolated and it's just not so.

Carey: 18:15

Sorry, and that's what I want to focus on, which is how did this affect surrogacy and IVF IVF and as a result surrogacy, particularly in Alabama, but now also in other states, I have seen some of the fallout and seeds issued an official statement as did. ASRM, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine, as did Resolve, which is the national infertility, advocacy organization for fertility and infertility rights. So, all of the major players have come out and said, oh my gosh, this is catastrophic, catastrophically wronged and catastrophically limiting for, People specifically in Alabama, but now other states as well that already had sort of tenuous fertility rights. So let's talk about what has happened in Alabama since this

Lisa: 19:10

ruling came out. So there are five IVF clinics in Alabama, three of those five or two of those five. Okay. Three of those five have halted IVF altogether. They're just not doing it. They're also not allowing, um, well, it's not that they're not allowing. So you also can't ship your embryos out of Alabama because now any transportation company, it, the liability is they could be up for murder. And of course, you know, embryos. Are known for like, if you're, if you're running the risk on that, like, chances are there's some, you know, embryo that's not going to make it like, that's just how it works. So, let me just clarify that for

Carey: 19:57

people that are listening. The Alabama ruling said that an embryo. Is a child. It's not an embryo. It's a child. So therefore you can't freeze it. You can't transport it and lose it. You can't donate it to medical science. You can any way result in that embryo dying. Or not making it or being disposed of because that is now a child with the right the rights of a child. So embryos that would normally be able to be kept frozen and shipped to another clinic so that the parent could continue their IVF cycle. Or their surrogacy now, the transportation companies are like, heck, no, we're not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole. Because if 1 of those embryos is damaged, or doesn't make it through the transportation process, we are now possibly held liable for murder of a child slash embryo.

Lisa: 20:57

Correct and also, um, it, it doesn't only impact just freezing because now, whenever you create embryos, there are always some that don't make it. That's why the just period has stopped, right? Because even creating embryos now is an issue because just the natural process of creating embryos, you know, that there are some that will not make it. And how are you supposed to prove, not prove, especially with a court that obviously didn't even pass biology class? How are you supposed to prove to them that this is May or may not have survived anyway, or would, you know, chances are wouldn't have survived like, there's no way to prove that because you don't always know, like, a lot of times you're just like, well, you know, we'll give it the best shot. Um, so it's just, it's very complicated. Um, some people have been talking about, well, is that kidnapping? Is that holding my child hostage? Because I can't come and get that child. I mean, it really. The only option that I can see, and I could be totally wrong and I'm not an attorney, would be for parents to physically go themselves to another IVF clinic, rent a cryotank from that clinic out of state, go to Alabama, pick up their own embryos, Right sign, whatever kind of waivers needed, and then transport them themselves to the new clinic because the liabilities that on the parents. But as we also recently saw in a different case, and I can't remember the state that it was in, um. Where a woman had an a miscarriage at home, um, and then she was brought up on charges of, um, mishandling a body or something because she had, um, she had contacted the hospital. She had contacted a variety of people to ask what to do. And she was early. Like, she was pretty early on in this miscarriage. Um, we're not talking like it was a full, you know, baby or anything like that. We're talking like. A little, you know, glob of cells. Um, and so she ended up flushing it down the toilet because it's the only thing that she could think of to do and she didn't feel okay putting her, you know, in the garbage or anything. And she was brought up on charges. Now she, those ended up. Getting dropped, I was going to say waved, but dropped because it was ridiculous, but that's, that's the risk that people, you know, there's really nothing you can do now at this point with those embryos are just stuck there.

Carey: 23:29

Right. And so the fallout has affected obviously people in Alabama. Who were going to or were in the middle of starting IVF or creating embryos or surrogacy that's completely stopped and the people that are trying to get their embryos to another clinic are potentially stuck and stopped. So it's obviously been catastrophic in that sense. There's other states like Texas. I believe Florida is 1 of them. What's

Lisa: 23:56

the other 1 Arkansas? Um, I think there's. Missouri. Yeah. And there's, there's 14 different personhood bills of a variety of, you know, like, they're all attacking different issues. So, like, ones about, you know, when does child support start, you know, like, there's different things, but they're all basically personhood bills. Um, the biggest concern I've heard is about Texas, because of course we know about their, Okay. Abortion rules and all of their, the difficulties that they've been having there, but they have been saying since there was no carve out for IBS. Um, and what they had been saying was, well, IBS was never intent. It was never our intention to target or stop. So it's not a problem. So there's a lot of states that have these personhood bills or these abortion bills, um, that are severely limiting and. Now, because there's no specific carve out for IVF, which everyone had said when they were doing these bills. Oh, don't worry. We aren't that was not our intention. This doesn't apply there. This now shows that it applies. And so that's that's the problem is no one's really sure exactly what's going to happen. And it's only been, you know, a few days. It hasn't been that long yet. So I'm sure there will be more fallout to come. But I mean, just. It's not just your ability to build a family now that's at risk, but it's your health while you or your surrogate or anyone else is pregnant, it's, you know, the liability of, um, even just regular people that. Just get pregnant in the normal fashion at what point, like, if you have a miscarriage, like, should you even try to get pregnant? If, if you are, let's say, older or have a history of miscarriage, should you even try to get pregnant? If you're now going to be at risk of A wrongful death suit, because someone's going to try and prove that you did or did not do something that maybe you should have or shouldn't have done. And we've all, I mean, if you've ever been pregnant, all the advice that you get from everyone, right? This is what you should do. This is what you shouldn't do. That doesn't stop or change when it's trying to get pregnant. There's the same type of thing as far as Advice and everyone has a different belief of what they should do or shouldn't do. There's a tons of misinformation, old wives tales, things like that. Um, and you just don't know. I mean, it's a very passionate topic, your ability to have a family, your ability to, you know, carry that pregnancy. Like all of those things are very, very. Just innately a part of being human and people are trying to attack each other about, you know, whether or not they think that. You should or should not do what, you know, have a family

Carey: 27:01

and that's really what it boils down to, which is that, um, at the end of the day, religion has greatly affected the rights of individuals to make their own decisions, whether it's medical or family building related. And now we're starting to see Supreme Courts in different states make way for other legal arguments in other states. To step in and say, see, this is what this court said. So now we want to, we want to say this too. And what that, what that is ultimately doing is basically making it almost completely impossible for citizens in that state to build their families or safely make medical decisions for their own health. And so it can't be understated, in my opinion, that this Alabama decision has already started to have a ripple effect that is completely detrimental to people being able to pursue IVF, surrogacy, and like you said, maybe just pregnancy in general. And that should be concerning to anyone, regardless of religion. It should be concerning to anyone that cares about being able to make their own choices. About their own health and their own family period and that's really what we're talking about on why everyone is so concerned. Right?

Lisa: 28:31

It's true. Um, because when you take a case to court, a lot of what they're relying on is called legal precedent, which means decisions made right by this quarter. That court. Um, now, the good news is that for decades, there have been legal decisions made. That say, no, this doesn't count. No, an embryo isn't a child. No, you know, you can't start child support till this, you know, there's a lot of those types of decisions, but we're starting to see this push right the other direction now. And so it will be very interesting to see how that plays out. But as we've seen in, um, several states, like, I think it was what Kansas, um. They had a personhood bill on their ballot and it over and this is a very conservative state. Um, it overwhelmingly lost the people said, absolutely not. So we're seeing more that it is not a conservative versus a liberal. issue. This is a woman's health issue. And it's women that understand. And while of course there are always outliers and there are women that haven't had issues with their fertility, they have a very specific experience. And so they have a hard time understanding other experiences where your journey to parenthood has been more difficult. Um, but yeah. It's very, very important that women speak up during this time, because otherwise, we're letting these men make the decisions for us, and I'm sorry, they just don't understand how it all works. They just don't. Right. They

Carey: 30:14

don't. And I wouldn't say, definitely true of. The man making the decisions, but also just the government in general, making decisions, which is a lot of the reasons why seeds is really important. The society for ethics and egg donation and surrogacy of which you're a board member. And I'm an officer and we're both longtime members because if we, as a. Surrogacy, fertility, IVF community, fertility community don't come together and try to educate and set standards and set forth some form of self regulation and understanding of how things should work and how presenting facts. Then we have people like the Alabama Supreme Court judge who know nothing about surrogacy, nothing about IVF, nothing about it seems general biology and are making big decisions that make Massively impactful, um, catastrophic results on people. So it's important that we as a community come together and factually state, like, this is really what the deal is. This is how it's affecting people in real life today. And this is why this should not be upheld and should not be the case. The good news is that the attorney general in Alabama has. Um, but I think that just people being aware and doing a little more research into it is important. Um, so that they understand what's going on in our country today.

Lisa: 31:53

Well, and then I go ahead. And the nice thing about SEADS is that unlike some of the other organizations, we have a wide, um, variety of, um, professionals. So it's not just patients. It's not just doctors, right? We have doctors and mental health professionals and attorneys and agencies, and we can share all of these patient stories. So it's really kind of a wealth of knowledge. And I hope that at some point, um, You know, some of these. Legal, I don't know the people that are put in the place of making some of these decisions will be able to come to seize to get educated on some of these items before they make some of these huge decisions that they can get us involved because it's really a unique organization that can provide that full. Um, viewpoint of the impacts of some of these, some of these laws. So, and we do have the standards now, which is excellent. So, um, you know, it kind of provides that. Here's what you should expect if you're a circuit. If you're a parent, you know, here are the standards you can expect from your agency and then we'll be expanding that out as well. So hopefully we can get that education out there. Yeah,

Carey: 33:18

absolutely. Um, well, we're kind of running out of time, but I do want to tie this back into, um, you know, religion as a whole. Um, we can, we can see the damage that it can do in surrogacy, but in terms of how it affects the. Decisions and the process of surrogates and intended parents, um, the number one thing that comes to my mind is I've definitely noticed a lot more surrogates coming through who say that they, um, will not terminate a pregnancy and what we call no termination surrogates who basically say. I don't believe in termination, whether it's for myself or as a surrogate. And I, I only want to match with parents who have the same views, definitely seen an uptick in that. Um, so, and a lot of them do also say that they are because they subscribe to a specific religion and that that's the religious views that motivate them to say no termination regardless. So how do you feel like religion ties into surrogacy today? The balance between surrogates making their own decisions based on their personal and possibly religious beliefs versus the rights of parents to make decisions for their own child.

Lisa: 34:41

So, 1st of all, I believe that everybody has right to make their own decisions about their own body. So, if a surrogate feels that they will never under any circumstance terminate, that's absolutely okay. And it is also important that they match with parents with the same view that said. Surrogates, by just the nature of qualifying to be a surrogate, you have not had any fertility issues. You've also not had any complications during your pregnancy. And so we tend to also educate. About things like an ectopic pregnancy, like, is that really something that you could, you know, take a pill basically that would stop the hormones that could then save your life so that your children, you know, we'll still have you as a mother. Is that really a hill that you want to die on? Um, literally? Yeah, because that is what will happen or, you know, what if you're, um. Blood pressure gets too high. They're trying to, um, you know, control it with medication, but it gets to a point where the only way to save your life is to deliver that baby, whether the baby is going to make it or not. Um, you know, and when you're in that 20 ish something week, it's, you don't know, you don't know what's going to happen. So, I mean, even at 30 weeks, you still don't know, but at least it's better. Um, and so. We have those conversations like it's fine that that's your discussion, you know, that that is your thought process. It is your body. But let's go through some of these scenarios just to make sure that you have thought these through that that's an educated decision. And that's still something that you are wanting to, um, stand firm on because I'll be honest. I had a no term case where the intended parents were no term. The surrogate was no term. So they were absolutely on board with this. At the 20 week ultrasound, um, they found that the baby was missing a lot of its internal organs. So it was missing its esophagus. It was missing, um, its urinary tract. So basically, for those that don't know, the baby kind of works like a pump inside of, um, the womb. So it swallows in the amniotic fluid. It goes through their body. It pees it out. That keeps the, the fluid levels, um, kind of steady. Right. Um, so this baby was missing a whole bunch of its internal organs and the doctor said, we do not have the medical like capability of fixing this. Like if it was something like a hole in the heart or something, like we could, we could do this, but we just don't know what to do. So they went to. You know, 2nd opinion, 3rd opinion, like every time. I mean, they had another ultrasound done by somebody else almost every other day and they were watching the baby decline. And so finally, the, um, I forget who's the surrogate or the intended parents, but 1 of them asked the doctor at 1 of these appointments, is the baby suffering? And they said, well, basically, it's like starving to death and suffocating at the same time. And we're just not sure which is going to get the baby first. Like, it's not going to make it to delivery. It's not, you know, that, um, you know, and so we connected them. I mean, actually connected in the very beginning with mental health and they were, you know, through all of this, um, with, um, A whole team of, you know, medical experts and mental health professionals and everything. And finally, it came down to where the parents said after they felt that the baby might be suffering. They said to the surrogate we are. Okay. If you want to terminate, um. But we're also okay. And we'll support you if you choose not to, like, it's really up to you. Um, and the surrogate took, I think like three days to think about it. And then she finally decided that termination was best that the bait, she felt the baby was suffering. It was no way it was going to make it to delivery. Um, and, you know, so they, they moved forward with that and all just so everyone knows when you, when we call it a termination. All they did was induce delivery, like, that was it. They're not doing, you know, there's a lot of horror stories about the things that happened in cases like that. All they did was induce delivery. So, um, you know, so it's, I think you never know until you're in that situation, really what's going to happen. I think it's, it. It ties right into the whole abortion decision, right? Like, you can be very hardcore and firm, but then when you're presented with, here's an actual, like, factual case, what would you do? Then it might change. And and I think that that's the piece that's missing a lot of this. Um, they're, I mean, yes, life insurance policies are put into place. They are okay, because things can happen. But I really think that surrogates need to think through and find out what. Those instances might look like, and then it can kind of carve out what they feel comfortable with and what they don't because every pregnancy does not equal a healthy baby. And so it's, it's finding that out now that said, most surrogates feel is that it's the attendant parents decision. And so they kind of separate themselves and, um, had very religious surrogates that still felt kind of separated from that and felt that it is intended parents decision because they're the ones that have to live with the repercussions of that decision and all the. Eternal liability, I guess, would be a good way of saying it also rest with the parents because they are allowing them to make that decision and they purely see themselves more as a, a vessel that's there to help them, but not to make that decision. And so. But it's, it's a very personal decision and I feel that very strongly that, um, everyone has a right absolutely to whatever they feel is going to work with that for them and they should be able to make that decision. So I don't think it's a matter of trying to convince one way or there's a right or a wrong perspective, but I think making an informed choice is very important because a lot of times when you have never experienced anything other than an easy, healthy pregnancy. It's hard to think about all of the things that could potentially go wrong, of course,

Carey: 41:25

and a lot of times on the opposite end of that coin, the parents have been through a lot of loss and possibly also a lot of complications if they've So, um, I've been able to get pregnant before, so they're seeing it from a completely different lens of many things that could and have gone wrong for them personally. So the overwhelming point as we kind of wrap up this topic, I feel like we need a part two because there's so much more to delve into with religion and surrogacy, but the overwhelming point for me as I'm hearing you talk about, you know, religion and how it's very subjective and it's very personal and every situation's different. And even people who are super firm on certain beliefs. Could end up changing those beliefs based on the situation. What that says to me as this general topic of surrogacy and religion is that religion just on its own is very subjective. Look, just look at how many religions there are in the world and look at how many iterations of those religions there are in different parts of the world and look at how wildly different they are and how different, even in the Christian religion, how different factions see it. You know what I mean? Religion is very subjective. It is malleable. It changes depending on the person and the area of the country and the world to take something. So the word that's coming to my mind is volatile and ever changing and try to impose it on something as scientific and literal as IVF and human development and pregnancy is so anti. Common sense to me, and it's where we see things like Alabama just completely blow up when you try to take something so completely subjective and insert it into something so very literal and rooted in science, you are bound to come up with situations where a large swath of people are completely alienated and left without options. And I think that's what people need to remember is that there is a time and a place for religion. And it is not in IVF and family

Lisa: 43:36

building. Well, I think the interesting thing is that most of these religions, if not all, um, believe in free agency, right? So they believe in free agency. They would not agree to a government that imposes some law that stops them from practicing their religion, but yet. What we're seeing here in at least when it comes to family building is that they're trying to impose their religious beliefs on others. And I think that that's where the conflict is in reality is we either have free agency. Or, you know, you are dictating now, if you're in the majority, then you're dictating how other people should live their lives. But if you think that that's okay, you have to think of yourself on the other end. So for example, if, if Christianity is the majority religion in America, how would everyone feel if a different religion pick one, I don't care, a made up one came in and then said, this can no longer happen. This is what you have to do that's what we're doing to other people and that that's why the founding fathers wanted separation between church and state was because they all came from Europe where they had like a state controlled church, right? So that, like the church of England, the church of, you know, whatever it was that was in charge at the time. And they had to flee in order to practice their religion. So the reason why we have church and state is very much for a factual, like historical reason. And we have somehow forgotten that. And it's the majority now, which is exactly what happened in Europe. Um, the majority that's trying to then put their belief system onto, you know, other people, because they feel it's right. And they have absolute. Like, right to believe whatever it is they want personally, but to impose their religious beliefs on someone else. That's the problem. And so, you know, the government is there to create is to keep order right to make society creates a social contract. So that, you know, we don't go. Creating havoc with each other, but not to dictate our personal beliefs. And that's I think that's where we need to have that conversation more is that to acknowledge that there are other religions that they're actually stopping. Um. Others from practicing a religion and there was a case like that in Texas where they were taking that Avenue and I don't know, I haven't heard anything. Maybe it hasn't come up yet. But because there were several religions that, um, the Jewish religion believes that the mother's life comes 1st. So, um, the anti abortion law in Texas goes against that and is allowing them to not practice that religion. So. I think we need to shift kind of our perspective, just like on the abortion discussion at all, where we tend to say it's pro choice or it's pro life. And it's not, that's not the discussion. We just have the wrong narratives and we need to shift the narrative to the actual talking point so we can come together.

Carey: 46:49

Absolutely. I agree. I couldn't agree more. So I think for people who are looking to get, you know, some more insight on this, there's, um, a statement that Seeds issued on our website, seedsethics. org. We'll link to all of these in, um, this episode. So there's seedsethics. org, um, resolve. org is, um, Has a campaign going. I believe it's called fight for families. Um, that's gathering, um, supporters for helping to stand up against the Alabama ruling specifically. Um, I would definitely check out, um, that organization to get some more information about how people can get involved and get their voice heard on these issues because it's important and it's affecting all facets of family building, including surrogacy. So I just really appreciate your time today. And again, I think we might have to talk about a part two because there's so much we still need to delve into on this, but thank you very much for this really engaging conversation, Lisa.

Lisa: 47:46

Thanks for inviting me, Carrie. Talk to you soon. Absolutely.

Carey: 47:49

So that brings us to the end of this episode of the normalized surrogacy podcast by surrogacy mentor. I want to again, thank Lisa for joining me today. Be sure to check us out online at surrogacy mentor. com. If you're interested in knowing whether surrogacy is right for you, take our easy two minute quiz on our website. Also check us out at modern parent mentor. com. If you're considering surrogacy as an independent surrogate or intended parent. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast to learn more about gestational surrogacy and how to have a safe, ethical, and enjoyable surrogacy journey. Talk to you next time.